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Hurricane relief

Posted: January 4, 2013 - 6:01pm

Hurricane relief

Those of us who are high and dry, and have adequate insurance for natural hazards, are asking why we should be taxed $60 billion so that Hurricane Sandy victims can rebuild on flood plains.

If we are going to spend this money, why not attach some revenue to the Sandy relief bill? A 20 cent federal gasoline tax for three years would cover the cost.

Rolf Westgard

St Paul

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OldFarmBoy
36602
Points
OldFarmBoy 01/05/13 - 09:09 am
6
0

Rolf

How about making it 50 to 75 cents it the states that recieve hurricane help.

I like you're latest stragey though. This should get some comments. Your other stuff has been really quiet. Even from your pal chey.

southie11
20136
Points
southie11 01/05/13 - 10:45 am
8
2

Building too close to the ocean

is nuts. The states should have never allowed that. After the homeowners' insurance pays them off, it should be declared an unbuildable area and purchased by the states for a barrier or a public beach. And not for some hugely inflated value, since it is worth little since it will happen again.

hein1ric
2357
Points
hein1ric 01/05/13 - 10:58 am
7
1

They won't learn

After Katrina they re-built below the sea level again and built a bigger better wall.
Now they can test it against a bigger and better storm.

fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/05/13 - 11:03 am
3
7

Hmm

I suppose Mr. Westgard has some interesting solutions as to where to move New York City. We're not just talking about a few homes built on the dunes along the ocean.

Flood plain? Please google "Hurricane Sandy damage map" and ask yourself where one could move entire cities and populations to mitigate this type of disaster in the future.

I do agree with adding a federal gas tax of one dollar or more. Our nations bridges and highways could do with a little revamping.

Otter
719
Points
Otter 01/05/13 - 11:32 am
6
4

It's easy to be smug when you're "high and dry"

So you're suggesting we move NYC 10 or 20 miles inland? Is that your plan? Chris Christie probably would have agreed, back when New Jersey was "high and dry." Funny how our attitude about government changes when we're the ones standing on our roof.

rolflindy
5906
Points
rolflindy 01/05/13 - 12:37 pm
8
1

Moving cities

Most of that damage was to New Jersey waterfront properties and low areas on Long Island and Staten Island, not all of New York City.
We have a similar situation with the exposed North Carolina Outer Banks.
Go ahead and build there; just don't expect the rest of us to cover you when the sea rises up.

Myeye08
3956
Points
Myeye08 01/05/13 - 02:56 pm
7
2

But Rolf...

Shouldn't government be responsible for their mistakes? Didn't permits need to be secured (bought) before building? Why should the owner take the hit when the property purchased met all the requirements for construction? Could this be a example of local government (Planing and Zoning) chasing the buck for the sake of feeding the system(tax base). Crow Wing County and Brainerd have done their best over the years of converting swamps into lake shore and filling wet lands to build parks and housing additions. Who will bale us out when our time comes if we don't help our neighbors out?

Myeye08
3956
Points
Myeye08 01/05/13 - 02:56 pm
2
3

But Rolf...

Shouldn't government be responsible for their mistakes? Didn't permits need to be secured (bought) before building? Why should the owner take the hit when the property purchased met all the requirements for construction? Could this be a example of local government (Planing and Zoning) chasing the buck for the sake of feeding the system(tax base). Crow Wing County and Brainerd have done their best over the years of converting swamps into lake shore and filling wet lands to build parks and housing additions. Who will bale us out when our time comes if we don't help our neighbors out?

southie11
20136
Points
southie11 01/05/13 - 08:52 pm
5
2

If you need entertaining

attend a planning and zoning meeting where homeowners, backed by lawyers and realtors, seek to be granted variances for building outside of the codes. And then, if they fail to get the variance, they continue the process to the next level, fighting for the right to do what they want no matter what the law says and in spite of the reasoning behind the law.

It looks like the same thing has happened in New Jersey. And New York. And I really don't think we should rebuild infrastructure in these areas as a priority for these homeowners. Call it a natural wetland and move on.

Myeye08
3956
Points
Myeye08 01/05/13 - 07:31 pm
3
0

Act I - The Beginning

If you want real entertainment follow the process in the very beginning, the township level. Once the stamp of approval is inked, the process begins and the odds are against slowing or stopping decrease as it begins the trail through P & Z and ending at the County Board for final approval. On the other hand, if more property owners would take the time to attend their township meetings, their time would be better spent and avoid a lot of frustration and lost time.

Scribbles
7255
Points
Scribbles 01/05/13 - 09:36 pm
5
2
fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/05/13 - 10:29 pm
2
6

yes

That's a very smug response, Mr. Westgard. According to wikipedia:

"In the United States, Hurricane Sandy affected 24 states, including the entire eastern seaboard from Florida to Maine and west across the Appalachian Mountains to Michigan and Wisconsin, with particularly severe damage in New Jersey and New York. Its storm surge hit New York City on October 29, flooding streets, tunnels and subway lines and cutting power in and around the city.[12][13] Damage in the US is estimated at over $63 billion (2012 USD)."

Read further towards the middle of the page all states affected:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Sandy

The amount of devastation is astounding, and more than just "damage ... to New Jersey waterfront properties" as you state. It is the height of arrogance to be as dismissive of the effects of this hurricane as you are.

hein1ric
2357
Points
hein1ric 01/05/13 - 11:22 pm
4
2

Fred!!

Scope out the 1930s. They had more devastation back then and how many times since. It's too bad it happened again but sooner or later we have to quit paying for stupid.

Fair n Balanced
40535
Points
Fair n Balanced 01/05/13 - 11:51 pm
3
3

He sincerely

hopes not! How else can he exist?

fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/06/13 - 12:01 am
2
6

heinric

I'm sorry, you just don't get it. This storm affected EXACTLY HALF of the states in the continental United States, not to mention 6 other countries totaling 66 BILLION dollars in damage, flooded subway tunnels, destroyed businesses, downed trees and power lines causing power outages affecting hundreds of thousands, in places as far from the east coast as Michigan! The weather system was so affected by this storm that roofs on houses and building were collapsing in areas as far from the coast as West Virginia!

You don't simply move a few houses from the coast of New Jersey to reduce this sort of damage!

Stop suggesting that all this damage could have been mitigated by a move that by any estimation would have cost several orders of magnitude MORE than the rebuilding costs now faced by the American people.

So, yes, by all means, let's quit paying for stupid.

rolflindy
5906
Points
rolflindy 01/06/13 - 05:31 am
5
2

Assessing risk

If your risk is so great that insurance companies won't insure you, don't build it.
As to hurricane power, the 1936 Florida Keys; 1969 Camille, and 1972 Andrew were all much more powerful than Sandy. There will be others; just stay out of their way.

fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/06/13 - 09:25 am
2
5

well

Hurricane Sandy was 1100 MILES wide, killing people all the way from Cuba to Toronto, Canada!

Pray tell, how does someone "stay out of their way"? You are either being sardonic in your responses or have no notion of the scope of this thing.

We're not talking about the flooding of Grand Forks by the Red River!

fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/06/13 - 09:53 am
2
4

nope

Of course not, but the suggestion is that somehow that one can simply move thousands of miles worth of houses, businesses and people (dozens of miles? hundreds of miles?) inland to avert this sort of disaster in the future.

I was merely suggesting that one can't know exactly where a storm will strike in the future, and simply moving a few houses from the dunes would have done little to avert this sort of damage. The magnitude of this thing was breathtaking.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and we can smugly suggest afterwards where businesses and houses shouldn't have been, but the scope of this storm was so broad and devastating that the worst damage was inescapable even with the moves simplistically suggested by Mr. Westgard.

Ask yourself, where do you propose we move tens of millions of people, homes and businesses? Kansas? Nebraska? Minnesota? Do we leave a fifty mile ring of no-man's-land all the way from Texas to Maine?

Oh, then we have to worry about tornado season!

Myeye08
3956
Points
Myeye08 01/06/13 - 10:52 am
4
1

Lessons on building?

How do island countries survive with annual hurricanes? You would think that eventually everything not rooted into the ground would be swept into the ocean. Yet, they do survive, hurricane after hurricane.

Myeye08
3956
Points
Myeye08 01/06/13 - 10:52 am
3
1

Lessons on building?

How do island countries survive with annual hurricanes? You would think that eventually everything not rooted into the ground would be swept into the ocean. Yet, they do survive, hurricane after hurricane.

fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/06/13 - 12:26 pm
2
5

Myeye08

How do they survive hurricanes? They don't. Here's what Sandy did to Cuba according to Wikipedia:

"While moving ashore, the storm produced waves up to 29 feet (9 meters) and a 6-foot (2 meter) storm surge that caused extensive coastal flooding. There was widespread damage, particularly to Santiago de Cuba where 132,733 homes were damaged, of which 15,322 were destroyed and 43,426 lost their roof. Electricity and water services were knocked out, and most of the trees in the city were damaged. Total losses throughout Santiago de Cuba province is estimated as high as $2 billion (2012 USD). Sandy killed 11 people in the country – nine in Santiago de Cuba Province and two in Guantánamo Province; most of the victims were trapped in destroyed houses.

twist429
2004
Points
twist429 01/06/13 - 05:19 pm
3
3

Ahh more taxing

Yes raise the gasoline tax... That won't affect the middle and lower classes right? $5 gas and $5 a gallon milk or higher anyone? I suppose if you read someone's earlier story we don't need milk anyways, but at least our roads and bridges will be fixed, just won't have people that can afford to drive on them.

OldFarmBoy
36602
Points
OldFarmBoy 01/06/13 - 05:48 pm
2
3

But Twist that would

Be called the libby way. Going by you're point's Twist. That would be Rolf. 90% lib & 10% good guy!!!

Told ya Rolf. This makes 25.

twist429
2004
Points
twist429 01/06/13 - 05:58 pm
2
4

Oh

But I thought they only wanted to tax the super rich not the rest of us? Oh darn how I hate when I point out the liberal lies...

fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/06/13 - 06:50 pm
2
4

Suggestions?

So, how do you propose we go about fixing the structurally deficient roads and bridges in the U.S? There are nearly 8,000 fracture critical or structurally deficient bridges in the U.S. Remember the I-35 W bridge collapse?

How do YOU propose paying for this problem? I have some ideas, but they are apparently not too well received here.

http://SaveOurBridges.com/

southie11
20136
Points
southie11 01/06/13 - 06:56 pm
5
2

Fred

Let's declare armistice in Afghanistan and bring home the troops. Then retrain those who are jobless to repair our bridges and roads. Why repair and pour money into a country which does not benefit us or want us there?

twist429
2004
Points
twist429 01/06/13 - 07:01 pm
3
3

Fred

Don't we already have a federal and state gas tax to deal with these deficiencies? Why isn't that money being spent to fix those roads and bridges?

fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/06/13 - 07:06 pm
4
2

Southie

Excellent idea. We have troops deployed in more than 150 countries around the world! We account for almost half of the world's spending on the military.

It's time to stop making bombs and start building bridges.

fredanderssen
782
Points
fredanderssen 01/06/13 - 07:18 pm
3
4

Twist

Minnesota collected $849.6 million in fuel taxes in 2011 (25 cents per gallon on gas and diesel rising to 28.5 in 2012). One cent per gallon would raise an additional $31 million dollars/year.

Minnesota motor vehicle fuel and registration taxes are constitutionally dedicated solely to highway purposes.

According to Mn Post:

"Now compare those extra highway user fees with the hidden costs of inadequate road capacity and maintenance: well over $1,000 a year in losses for the average driver because of wasted time and fuel in congestion plus added vehicle repairs."

From another article:

"The state is estimating a -- gasp! -- $50 billion shortfall for road construction and maintenance over the next 20 years."

So, Twist, It's easy to criticize, but how do YOU propose to fix this problem?

Fair n Balanced
40535
Points
Fair n Balanced 01/06/13 - 07:38 pm
2
3

I vote we make

the 47% that don't pay federal income taxes and fredanderssen make up the difference!

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